Exclusive content too HOT for RealNeo. MELT in Lakewood gets caught brown handed!

Submitted by Zebra Mussel on Wed, 05/20/2009 - 04:52.

Being caught 'brown handed' is like getting caught red handed except that you are caught being a pollut-o-crat.....as in brown fields and and as in the antithesis of Green.

In an effort to continue to clean up our city, our roving patrol at BSI captured another photo of a local business polluting our great land.  See Buckeye Sustainability Institute' NorthCoast Green Spieler Blog for the hot shot!

I look forward to your thoughts!

What are they doing wrong?

Hey ZM - good to see you! I think it is a great idea to have a crew of people out looking for environmental problems and bringing them to public attention - that is worth a Civic Innovation Lab grant!

What are they doing wrong here? Should they be using a more eco-friendly cleaner... not letting it drain into a storm sewer.... pouring it down their utility drain?

And nice to see http://northcoastgreenspieler.blogspot.com/2009/05/i-love-realneous.html - me too!

Disrupt IT

we old folks

 (I'm nOt referring to you here, Norm) grew up with bleach in everything. I'm not sure enough people know not to use it. We stopped using it a few years back. I think people also misjudge the amount they need to sanitize something.

Don't the storm sewers drain into the lake? I think a more appropriate disposal, if they have to use bleach, would be the utility drain.

Nice blog, btw.

Is that an MS4 storm drain?

Is that an MS4 storm drain?  If not then bleach going into it mean nothing it will go to place that uses much more bleach. 

If it is then those that have access to it should be aware that it is not part of the POTW and that it discharges directly into the natural water shed. An MS4 drain needs signage, otherwise people that have access to it may have no idea what they are doing when they dump chemicals in it.

City of lakewood storm water management  

Bleach is pesticide? Just a word, its a chemical compound, that kills organisms, that’s why people use it, to kill organism like bacteria and viruses. To call Bleach a pesticide is like calling bacteria and viruses pests, it is not incorrect but more a less statement of the obvious?   Do statements of the obvious suprise you?   

I think the MS4 drains and bussinesses and homes around them need to know that they are directly connected to the lake and or river.   I have seen MS4 drains and the ones that I have seen have lables on them, does that one?   

Why not call the city and ask is it?  Then does the owner of the bussiness know that?   Why make them look bad?  Is that how education works...with a smack to the head? 

None of this is or should be anyhting that most on this site already know right!  So when addressing the little things then each time over and over you have to do it completely or what?  Nothing changes? 



All new news to me

And very interesting. Is there a regional map of MS4 drains, as that seems to be critical information for citizens and businesses to know... I'm going to check the drains at my house and my parents

I've never seen discussions of any of this before, so I appreciate the information and awareness.

Disrupt IT

Not that I have seen, it

Not that I have seen, it seems that these MS4 are storm drainage disconnects within a combined system. I have seen drains that have “this is for rain water only” forged in the metal. It also said something about this drain leads directly to a lake. That would stop most people from poring down chemicals, not all but most. I am fine with those in the city, but they have to label them and inform people. I would like to see them lead to retaining ponds or reservoirs, then with overflows that take them to the lake or river. That would make a good location to study the water quality and educate people about what is in the water and were it comes from. Plus it would add some to areas, Shaker Lakes are man made and retain rain water.  

Bleach is water soluble and also has a relatively a high rate of evaporation. It is obvious it has levels that are consider less toxic and concentration that are very toxic. It’s not on my list of things I am highly concerned about, like heavy metals that do not leave the system on their own over time and get stuck in or bodies.

I would rather smell bleach then rotting garbage...the issue as to whether this is dumbing or not is still open, if closed in peoples minds then that could mean they may have a closed mind.  

The information is challenging.



Oengus + Chlorine Institute = Golf Buddies?


I dont mean to have to drop science on you...but in regards to:

<<<< "  Bleach is water soluble and also has a relatively a high rate of evaporation. It is obvious it has levels that are consider less toxic and concentration that are very toxic. It’s not on my list of things I am highly concerned about,"

I would say:

The real issue is not just how toxic chlorine itself is but how the unintended byproducts of chlorine (organochlorines and dioxins) remain in the environment. They are persistent in the environment; they do not break down readily and therefore bio-accumulate.

To your " I would rather smell bleach then rotting garbage...the issue as to whether this is dumbing or not is still open"   I would say...  are you stepping to my baby's?  I have two... that I know of.  Dont go suggesting I endanger their safety.  So lets talk for a spell about the poison control center and how many calls per year your not so bad bleach product really is. 

While we know that chlorine is a substantial environmental problem caused by the paper industry, household bleach and cleaners containing chlorine also pose a serious health risk. For instance, in 1997, 217,989 calls to the Poison Control Center concerned household cleaners. Of those calls, 54,453 were about chlorine bleach and 7,570 were for chlorine disinfectants. So, that means that 28.4 percent of all calls were related to poisonings by chlorine products. What's even more important, most of those calls were about children under 6 years old.

SIX YEARS Old.   Now come on.  You want chlorine bleach flowing into your drinking water source, AND you want it under your sink to make your whites sparkling white?    Wrong answer.  Not in my back yard, and not in my house.    You may want to attend all of the golf outings sponsored around the world by the Chlorine Institute, but  I think i'll stay home.

As for as MS4's go figure.  I love storm drain labeling and drainshed mapping.  I recommed it all the time, and have implemented it at sites coast to coast.  This drain's not labeled, the employee does not give a ratz azz.  That employee is breaking the law most likely.  Melt was informed and provided with the regulatory citation.   Bleach is a pesticide under FIFRA if it is labeled with a USEPA REg #.  We need insider information to confirm that....   this is in motion.   We have people on the inside with spy cams.  If all goes well, you'll see it all on the I-Team at 5pm.

Recognize that the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency does NOT leave there desks unless they have a permit violation or a call from the citizenry.     Terra Prima!






so you are adverse to long hot showers then? 

your right susan we are all just big lab rats? 

do you guys all smell?  




chlorine filtration

Chlorine is a fat-soluble compound and just as much enters your body when you take a shower as when you drink it directly.

And on filtering your tap water:

Research has shown that long-term exposure to certain by-products of chlorine may increase the risk of cancer, and bladder cancer in particular.

Studies have linked one specific by-product, called trihalomethanes or "THMs" to a significant increase in the risk of miscarriage in pregnant women who drank five or more glasses of unfiltered tap water a day.

THMs are a group of organic chemicals, which are suspected of being carcinogenic. They are formed in water when chlorine being used as a disinfectant reacts with natural organic matter (such as humic acids from decaying vegetation).

A Brita water filter claims to remove 99 percent of chlorine as well as heavy metals in tap water such as lead and copper which can be caused by the household installations. The filters also eliminate fluoride, which may not be a benefit for children's teeth.

Brita, however, does not filter THMs out of tap water.

-- Your health: Brita or tapwater? ( From Staff Reports, Daily Californian, U. California-Berkeley )

Many thanks for the vital citation on ZM's quotes' sources, Oengus.

I get it, it is all

I get it, it is all theocratic capitalists working through lobbyists and controlling the scientific community. Measured risk become either perfectly safe or totally poison. I bet that they argue cancer is a secondary industry, what does not cause malignancies? Some may say certain people can handle it and others cannot?

I am wondering about the children in china that have fluoride poisoning, do they work on a tea plantation? What gets them exposed to such high levels? Then I think about life expectancy, and that it all has to do with randomness because over all people are living longer. Even with all these threats.

What kills C-Diff? What kills what can kill you and your neighbor and your kids that will not kill you down the road? Collecting up in the soil and water, that’s so bad. Some die later so other do not die today? Was that drain connected to a combined sewer or not? Why are stores still selling bleach in the household cleaning isle? It is just a word pesticide or poison, it is the same. Correlations are not causations?

Is there a very safe way to make paper? Or will the new process create something they find worse fifty years from now.

If the child drinks bleach, I would not blame the manufacturer I would blame the parent.

You can save us all I will just prefer to come to terms with my mortality in an imperfect world. Who knows what the person at Melt was thinking about, maybe pandemics like swine flue or avian flu. Will the mild all natural cleaner kill anything?

What is primary and what is secondary? What I write and then what I copy and paste? What is seen in the lab or what is found in the environment? Expect a bumpy ride, there are all kinds of mindless followers.

It is all very complex, and keep in mind stress is a killer. Tell people they are killing themselves with showers it will make their heads spin off.

Great Stuff Zebra

Add me on Facebook, dude.  You are the man.

Support from the Hanna Building?

did someone say Civic Innovation Lab Grant?   That sounds like we could really heighten awareness of the issues!  Some one be in touch..i'd look forward to it.



Nice idea, wrong way to attack the problem


Not sure why you would single out this particular restaurant for doing something that they, and all food service providers, are required to do by the health department for good reason, and something I want any restaurant to do: be clean. Food-born pathogens are a serious concern and cause thousands of deaths worldwide every year. Many of these deaths are little kids.

I'm an environmental professional, and I'm equally concerned about the use of chlorine and the generation of THMs and other degradation products. There are other disinfecting methods, but few if any that are as effective, cheap, and come with the realtively small toxilogical exposure risk, as sodium hypochlorite. Small time business owners would not be able to maintain the cleanliness standards required by law, and desired by customers with exotic and less effective methods. It sounds like this restaurant is being a good food-service citizen, keeping things clean.

I just think we need to focus on the huge emitters of industrial pollution, who's toxic output is measured in TONS and TONS of really toxic chemicals, every day-not in bucket fulls. Some extremely dilute bleach water down the drain, and these guys are being referred to as a "local business poluting our great land"? I think this is really really misguided. This kind of emision is miniscule, campared to large quantity industrial facilities, many of which are right here in Cleveland. I know you know these things ZM. 

Go after those guys. 





nonpoint source pollution

I worked in a restaurant for 4 years here in NEO where bleach water was (when I first arrived) routinely tossed out on the pavement to make its way to the stormdrain and on to the lake. The simple solution is to put it into the sanitary sewer - every kitchen should have a sink or easier still, a utility drian where mop buckets can be dumped.  If you're an environmental professional, you should know that Nonpoint Source Pollution is the curreent big challenge. These do's and don'ts around the home should help Melt get their game on track.


Susan- I'm very familiar


I'm very familiar with the issues surrounding nonpoint source pollution. No argument there, a serious issue.  This may be a combined sewer, I don't know. Look, I'm concerned about serious chemical exposures that we all experience daily.

I guess what troubles me the most are forums like this where people can hide behind pseudonymns and aliases and make all kinds of accusations based on conjecture and supposition.  ZM  didn't really  know  what was being discharged down that drain. Didn't really know if that was a combined sewer or not.  But, yet leveled some serious allegations against these restaurant guys, in a public forum, with no real information. This is worrisome. I think if someone really wanted to promote positive change with these folks in the context of nonpoint source polution, they would call the owners, talk to them,  voice the concerns, offer some constructive suggestions, just like you probably did at the restaurant that you worked at, when you say what they were doing. Something better than mudslinging based on assumptions, behind their back. That's gutless.

Melt Restaurant, anonymity, and Google crawling


Hello Seb,
Many of us at Realneo also have concerns about anonymity causing flagrant - possibly unsupportable – remarks in a public fora.  
This is one reason why Item A - a motion to initiate a prohibition against anonymous users on Realneo in the future – has been introduced for the Saturday, June 13, meeting.
Now many of us know ZM’s real identity, and I personally appreciate his knowledge, viewpoints, and humor.   I’ll bet that ZM did know it was chlorine (smell) – and if it was going down a street drain, it would not matter if it was/was not a combined sewer – because the “combining” only takes place in heavy rains, and it is the overflow from the sewer to the storm that is the concern, not vica versa .  If it went down a street drain, it went to a waterway – not the treatment plant.
I don’t think that it is  “gutless” to take time to post to the internet – even if done anonymously – and I don’t believe that it is necessarily best to telephone and speak directly with the purported violator.  
I believe that throwing stuff up on the web – where Google will crawl it – is the best way to build a sound, fair, and equitable database of everyone’s spastic, and considered, remarks.
You, Susan, and I are doing that now, with our comments.  And we are all providing "bricks" for the foundation of an honest analysis.   best, jeffb


Little Italy restaurant polluting

I was driving by another much loved Cleveland restaurant today - this one on Mayfield, in Little Italy - and an employee was dumping their mop-bucket of dirty water into the storm sewer drain... headed for Lake Erie or sewage treatment?

Disrupt IT