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Rampant Misinformation and Bad Journalism (original post by dbra)Submitted by Historian on Thu, 03/24/2011 - 15:14.
What IS the Sovereign Citizen Movement ?Submitted by dbra on March 20, 2011 - 1:07pm.
Since we have recently been frequented by members of the Sovereign Citizen Movement, and some of our regular contributors have been threatened by them, I thought it might be helpful to take the time and find out what this "movement" is and "who" its people are. If you're not into the history, you can skip to the section SCM and Violence, below and info from the FBI. "The sovereign citizen movement is a loose network of litigants, commentators and financial scheme promoters. Self-described "sovereign citizens" believe that they are answerable only to English common law and are not subject to any statutes or proceedings at the federal, state or municipal levels. They especially reject most forms of taxation as illegitimate. Formed in 1969 by William Potter Gale, an anti-Jewish Christian Identity adherent, and by Henry Beach, a former pro-Nazi leader of the "Silver Shirts" in the 1930s, they rapidly spread throughout the Mid-Western and Western states. They claim that a Jewish conspiracy had taken over the government and was responsible for passing "illegal" laws mandating the income tax code. The only valid laws are based on the English Common Law and deriving from the Magna Carta. The power to interpret these laws is held to rest with common law associations composed of white, Christian males. Sovereign Citizens believe the government tricks people into becoming 14th Amendment citizens by signing contracts for privileges such as vehicle registration, Social Security and even fishing licenses. They proclaim the USA is a republic and not a democracy,and that the "individual is sovereign." This movement is based on theories that The People are either "Fourteenth Amendment citizens", who are subject to the federal and state laws and taxes, or "sovereign citizens", who possess a Birthright and constitutionally secured unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and Happiness (Property) over which the individual is Sovereign. SCM employs tactics "Paper terrorism," including frivolous lawsuits, frivolous liens, fictitious financial instruments, fictitious automobile-related documents, and misuse of genuine documents such as IRS forms; and various frauds and scams. “Paper terrorism,” is the most frequently used form of assault used by "Sovereign Citizens" to harass, intimidate, and retaliate against public officials, law enforcement officers, and others. Most common is the filing of bogus liens on the property of perceived enemies. At the same time, Sovereign Citizen members seize and illegally occupy abandoned homes or those foreclosed because of default in payment. One of the first tactics of the resurgent sovereign citizen movement was the formation of vigilante "common law courts." Members of these courts used them as a forum for grievances against the "de facto" government or for assistance in attempts to harass their enemies. A number of "common law courts" issued threats of various kinds against public officials. One of the earliest and most visible such courts was established in Tampa, Florida, in 1993 by Emilio Ippolito and various followers. Calling itself the "Constitutional Court of We the People," the court moved in short order from granting divorces to issuing arrest warrants against judges. Eventually Ippolito and six followers were convicted in 1997 for interfering with trials in Florida and California and for sending letters threatening to kidnap and arrest judges and jury members. Other common law courts were equally defiant; in the Midwest, two leaders of a central Ohio common law court became involved in violent confrontations during traffic stops, resulting in one death. In Missouri and Illinois, dozens of common law court members were arrested in 1996 on harassment-related charges related to their use of bogus liens. Closely tied to extremists groups and churches, such as the Westboro Baptist Church of Kansas, the Sovereign Citizen demands that the US Constitution guarantees him or her the right to carry weapons at all times...The Southern Poverty Law Center* has reported on the Sovereign Citizen Movement, now deeply imbedded within the Tea Party and stalwarts in the Republican (GOP) Party buttressed by Sarah Palin, one-time/part-time governor of Alaska and vice-presidential running mate of Arizona Republican Senator John McCain, stating "Sovereign citizens believe most Americans have no obligation to obey laws, regulations or tax codes, especially those imposed by the federal government. They justify their beliefs on the basis of decades-old conspiracy theories and intricate, nonsensical legal theories." The SCM are supported by corporate-inspired right-wing extremist broadcast hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and others who cry out for the limitation of all basic human rights that are extended to Blacks, Latinos, Gays and Lesbians, and other marginalized groups. When President Obama was elected at the height of the recession that was generated by George W. Bush’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that plunged the USA into a back-breaking debt to communist mainland China, these theories gained a fresh wind with the appearance of large numbers of ‘birthers’ and ’9/11 truthers’ and those pushing “immigration reform” especially in Arizona where all Latinos were considered to be illegal aliens until they showed proof of citizenship. SCM and Violence In the 1980's William Potter Gale announced a Holy War: "Yes, we are going to cleanse our land. We're going to do it with a sword. And we're going to do it with violence." He told his listeners to "start making dossiers, names, addresses, phone numbers on every damn Jew rabbi in this land or JDL leader in this land. ... You get these roadblock locations where you can set up ambushes, and get it all working now." Other similar messages attacked African-Americans and Communists. In April 1992, an angry resident of Sanilac County, Michigan, wrote a letter to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources stating he was no longer a "citizen of the corrupt political corporate State of Michigan and the United States of America" and was answerable only to the "Common Laws." He therefore expressly revoked his signature on any hunting or fishing licenses, which he viewed as contracts that fraudulently bound him to the illegitimate government of Michigan. That obscure Michigan hunter would, three years later, become known to the entire world. He was Terry Nichols, friend and accomplice of Oklahoma City Federal Building bomber Timothy McVeigh. In 1997, New Hampshire extremist Carl Drega killed two officers and two civilians and wounded another three officers before being killed–his death being condemned by members of his cult as “senseless police brutality.” 1996, the Montana Freeman held off federal authorities attempting to arrest them (on a variety of charges) for 81 days near Jordan, Montana. 1997, in the Republic of Texas standoff, Richard McLaren's faction of the so-called "Republic of Texas" initiated another armed confrontation in far-West Texas when they kidnapped a local couple in response to the arrest of one of their members. One member was killed during the standoff. In May 1998, sovereign citizen and Christian Identity adherent George Wolf shot two volunteer firefighters in Ashtabula County, Ohio, because their vehicle blocked him. In two incidents in April and May 2009, a Tennessee sovereign citizen, Walter Fitzpatrick III, and a Georgia sovereign citizen, Darren Huff, were arrested in connection with attempts to make “citizens” arrests of various local officials in Monroe County. In April 2010, a sovereign citizen group calling itself Guardians of the Free Republics issued ultimatums to all 50 governors to vacate their offices within 72 hours. On May 20, 2010, two West Memphis, Arkansas, police officers were killed and two Crittenden County sheriff’s officers wounded in two linked shootouts involving an anti-government sovereign citizen with ties to Ohio and Florida. Jerry Kane, was a “guru” in the movement who traveled around the country, often with his teenaged son Joseph. Kane specialized in a set of sovereign citizen theories called “Redemption;” he told audiences that his theories could get them out of their mortgages. Returning from a seminar in Las Vegas, their vehicle was pulled over by West Memphis Police Department Sergeant Brandon Paudert and Officer Bill Evans, who were engaged in a drug interdiction exercise along the interstate. The Kanes allegedly got out of the vehicle with firearms and opened fire on the two officers, killing them both. They drove off. An hour and a half later, an extensive manhunt located the vehicle at a Wal-Mart parking lot. As police closed in on the vehicle, a second shootout occurred. During this shootout, Crittenden County Sheriff Dick Busby was shot in the arm and Deputy W. A. Wren received a serious wound to the abdomen. Jerry and Joseph Kane were killed in the return fire. And most recently:
As the Guardian's Peter Walker and Politico's Carrie Budoff Brown reports have pointed out, this is the basic premise of the sovereign-citizen argument, which posits that government has used linguistic devices in certain laws to strip us of our rights. "This is an extraordinary freaking word game," says Alfred Adask, a guru of the sovereign movement and former publisher of the sovereign-citizen magazine AntiShyster, told me. "Not many people know how to do it or even understand it. The government has ensnared us with the sophisticated use of words and put us back into bondage. You have to master the definitions and start working out with a law dictionary." SCM and Jews The primary base for radical Sovereign Citizen groups is in Texas. Carolyn Yeager is a Texas-based (Ingram, Texas) neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier who runs her own Web site. The site is filled with racist and anti-Semitic material, as well as essays promoting motherhood and home-schooling. Yeager is the Texas State Leader of the neo-Nazi American National Socialist Workers Party (ANSWP), a group that descended from the National Socialist Movement, the largest neo-Nazi group in the country. Not only does Yeager deny the Holocaust, but claims that the Jews who carry tattooed numbers were self-inflicted in an effort to extort money from Allied Forces. To strengthen her claims, Yeager authored the book Auschwitz: The Underground Guided Tour; What the Tour Guides Don’t Tell You at , published by The Barnes Review. In the book, she claims that Auschwitz was not an extermination camp and that Nazi guards looked after the health of inmates–although all authenticated records show that 1.1 million Jews were murdered at Auschwitz Why You Might Not Want To Associate With These People (aside from the above) Many SCM members engage in a variety of frauds and scams, often targeting people with similar ideological beliefs in what might be called affinity fraud. A few of these schemes, most notably those perpetrated by the Colorado-based We the People and the Florida-based Greater Ministries International in the 1990s, took in millions of dollars. Other sovereign citizen groups, like the Embassy of Heaven and the Washitaw Nation, have specialized in the creation of fictitious car-related documents ranging from drivers' licenses to license plates. Still others, including the Civil Rights Task Force and the Constitution Rangers, have created fictitious law enforcement agencies, complete with fake identification cards, badges and even raid jackets. People associated with the Civil Rights Task Force have advocated what they term "reverse intimidation": interrogating the spouses of law enforcement officers who have had dealings with members. The most recent surge in the use of fictitious financial instruments began in 1999 with the development of a tactic called "Redemption" (sometimes known as "Accept for Value"), based on the theories of Roger Elvick, a sovereign citizen and white supremacist convicted on fraud charges in the 1980s. Redemptionists argue that by using a complicated process known as "regaining one's straw man" they can establish special Treasury Department accounts and issue bogus instruments they call "sight drafts" to pay off debts or make purchases. Should law enforcement officials or others interfere with this activity, redemptionists are told to file falsified I.R.S. Form 8300s against them, alleging that such officials engaged in a suspicious currency transaction. By the end of 1999, Redemption had swept across the country. Sovereign citizen organizations like The Aware Group, Rightway L.A.W. and the Republic of Texas, among others, regularly hold Redemption seminars to teach the tactic to eager audience members. A number of practitioners have been arrested since 1999 in Idaho, Ohio, Oregon, West Virginia and other states for attempting to pass the fictitious sight drafts or for harassing public officials attempting to halt the practice. In 2001, it is probably the single most popular sovereign citizen tactic. In the past year, in Sacramento, two sovereign citizens were convicted of running a fraudulent insurance scheme. Operating outside state insurance regulatory guidelines, the men set up their own company and sold “lifetime memberships” to customers, promising to pay any accident claims against their “members.” The company collected millions of dollars, but paid out very few claims. more... In Kansas City, three sovereign citizens were convicted of taking part in a conspiracy using phony diplomatic credentials. They charged customers between $450 and $2,000 for a diplomatic identification card, which would bestow upon the holder “sovereign” status—meaning they would enjoy diplomatic immunity from paying taxes and from being stopped or arrested by law enforcement. more... In Las Vegas, four men affiliated with the sovereign citizen movement were arrested by the Nevada Joint Terrorism Task Force on federal money laundering, tax evasion, and weapons charges. The investigation involved an undercover operation, with two of the suspects allegedly laundering more than a million dollars from what they believed was a bank fraud scheme. more... Close to Home Rightway L.A.W. With headquarters in Akron, Ohio, this group is one of the most active sovereign citizen groups in the country, with 15 chapters in at least 10 states. Led by Rick Schramm, Jack Smith, Jeanne Collins and Mary Keane, it is one of the major promoters of Redemption. Some chapters also reach out to prison inmates. Forgery is the process of making or adapting objects or documents (see false document), with the intention to deceive. ... Extortion is a criminal offense, which occurs when a person either obtains money, property or services from another through coercion or intimidation or threatens one with physical harm unless they are paid money or property. From the Office of the FBI: You can help. First, “be crime smart”—don’t fall for the bogus claims and scams of sovereign citizens. And second, if you have information on any suspicious activities or crimes, please contact us. Resources: The Southern Poverty Law Center has produced and posted online an instructional video intended for showing during roll call at law enforcement agencies. Narrating the 12-minute film are two men who fully understand the dangers some sovereigns present to authorities: West Memphis Police Chief Bob Paudert, father of one of officers murdered in May by Joe Kane, and Jim Cavanaugh, who retired earlier this year after 33 years at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Cavanaugh was a top official at the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Texas, during the five-year hunt for abortion clinic bomber and cop-killer Eric Rudolph, and in many other investigations involving right-wing radicals. Last year, he was honored for this work with the International Association of Chiefs of Police’s Civil Rights Award. (I would embed it but RealNEO does not yet accomodate member embedded videos): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_y-gLm9Hrw&feature=player_embedded
ps - much of this material is copied and pasted from other sites - the FBI, the ADL, SPLC primarily. I expect they would want the information disseminated and they have my thanks. and to the admin at RealNEO -not to be redundant but to MAKE A POINT:
then why did you welcome these whack jobs back?Submitted by dbra on March 14, 2011 - 3:49pm.
a few days ago? dw and another poster tried to warn you -- they're baaccckk... but you and a few others took the whackos' defense. don't you trust dw any more? i mean rEAlly - who wants to read this kind of garbage. they have the thought process of a .... god i can't even think of any creaton that unoriginal, that devoid of logic, that uneducated..........
AND I DON'T SEE TOO MANY OTHERS STEPPING UP AND CLEANING HOUSE HERE!!!!???????????????????
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This is the response post (with some additions) to dbra (above)
Submitted by Historian on Thu, 03/24/2011 - 15:16.
Above, I have posted as much of the original article as I tecnhically can for reference. Dear Sir or Madam, I feel this issue must be addressed again. I say "again" because I have already posted a similar post on this very site last night, only to find that the person to whose article I was originally responding has deleted his/her article and/or account this morning. That person's ID was “dbra.” This "Sovereign Citizen Movement" seems to be a hot topic. Since reading about it in said article yesterday, I have read up on what is meant by this term in the eyes of the government. It turns out, the Department of Justice has apparently invented the term “Sovereign Citizen” even though there appears to be no such "movement" existing as a formal or organized or networked set of individuals acting under a specified set of goals or philosophies. That is not to say that there do not exist random individuals, or even small groups, performing some of the activities mentioned in the D.O.J. Booklet. That booklet, by the way, is “Investigating Terrorism and Criminal Extremism, Terms and Concepts.” It basically lists terms in a glossary fashion providing for each term an explanation or definition. What I find interesting, critically thinking, is that about 90% of the assertions and facts listed under the “Sovereign Citizen” entry are things that I thought were good and in fact an integral part of our American culture, associated with about 10% of those things that appear to be “bad” or “questionable.” For example, I don't know what the “Posse Comitatus” group is, but they sound horrible. This “Sovereign Citizen” Movement is clearly a fabricated term intended to encompass a broad set of ideas and attempting to tie them to a recognizable term and the concept of TERRORISM and CRIMINALITY. The entire entry is written with a clear and undeniable assertion that the that the government as a whole, all existing laws, taxes, and regulations, officials, and agencies must be good and right and lawful; and that any thoughts, actions, or speech made against those things in any way fall under TERRORISM. Ironically, it seems the D.O.J. is guilty if "going to extremes" here. Well, with that implied logic, we should just skip trial and imprison every corporate lobby who brings lawsuits against the government to get laws changed in their favor; every attorney who challenges the constitutionality of a law on his own or on behalf of an American; every congressperson whose ever voted for anything the rest of the government doesn't agree with; every president who authorizes military actions without a declaration of war from congress; every one of you who nudged a few numbers on your tax returns in your favor or just blatantly hid money from the IRS; every teacher who teaches children the constitution and declaration of independence despite policies removing them from the curriculum; every single one of you who has ever written to your congressperson; ALL TO JAIL WITHOUT TRIAL FOR TERRORISM. I greatly appreciate this article. You raise some very important issues that all Americans should be made aware of. During this time of political tension and economic uncertainty, we Americans must be especially vigilant not only of external threats, but of internal threats as well. Such internal threats might include violent political uprisings or protests, specific acts of terrorism, and more subtle acts of disruption such as "paper terrorism" and misinformation where individuals or groups attack the stability of our political, societal, and economic systems using frivolous lawsuits, misinformation, and smear campaigns against not only undeserving people or officials, but also against the very ideals and concepts that founded our great nation and that define our way of life. First it is very important for we American people to be able to discern true news and positive events from misinformation, manipulation, and "acts of terrorism." Obviously, that kind of discernment requires the ability to separate proven or provable fact from speculation and fabrication, as well as the ability to distinguish facts or elements associated with each other that, by their very association may be misleading to a faulty conclusion. An analogy of this "association" might be an article talking about a local murder of innocent people by a certain man who used a kitchen knife to stab the victims. Then the writer mentions that the murderer is a member of a certain Catholic sect. Obviously, without knowing much about Catholics or having further factual background, most people would naturally assume, as a result of the association made between the murder, the murderer, and the sect, that the Catholic sect may be evil, or even the direct cause of the murderous behavior. Second, it is imperative that Americans learn more about our political and legal system, as most Americans are not taught much about either. Obviously, many people are preoccupied by trying to stay afloat in this sinking economy. They do not take the time to self-educate or analyze, but would rather allow themselves to be swayed by a popular source they consider credible. The blessings and curses of our republican form of government (see Constitution Article IV, Section 4) are that the people have no ruler to blame for their misfortune as a nation. The people themselves created the states and the nation and are the repositories of all of the political power, and therefore bear the ultimate accountability. Sure, the government was created as an agency to handle most of that responsibility as our representatives, but who is there to assure the government officials are acting in accordance with our wishes? The law of our land is the wishes of the people laid out in the constitution which creates, defines, and restrains our government. That law creates our constitutional republic, which the people have a duty to maintain. The reason for that becomes apparent when one actually researches what a constitutional republic actually is, as opposed to say, a democracy, or a socialist state. A republican form of government differs from most systems because the rights and liberty of each individual are held sacred and although the state may be steered by majority vote, the state or government may not infringe on the individual's rights and liberty. Not only that but all political power (sovereignty) is contained in the individuals and not in the group. A republic may operate much like a democracy in practice, meaning that the individuals may elect representatives to affect their will at the government level, but neither the representatives nor the government may take over the sovereignty of the individuals. Whereas in a democracy, the sovereignty is vested in the whole group, and the majority of that group makes the law that all in the group are then subject to. Both of these concepts come straight out of Black's Law Dictionary, and decisions of the supreme court of the United States and of several states. So, the sovereignty of the individual is not a mere conspiracy theory, it is how our nation has been organized and operated since 1776. Third, it is the right and duty of Americans to petition their government for a redress of grievances; in other words, sue officials when they are seen as out of line. It is the right and duty of Americans to quell political corruption when they see it. It is the right and duty of Americans to defeat tyranny when they encounter it, especially on their own soil. What I see happening in your article, whether intended or not, is the association of the exercise of those rights and duties with individuals labeled as "kooks" or "crazy" or "evil" or "demented." I see the accusation that the exercise by individuals of their sovereignty is a blasphemy to the very nature of being American. This couldn't be further from the truth. I am not personally aware of any "Sovereign Citizens Movement" or of any similar groups. And, I find it interesting that the label of "movement" has been ascribed to a number of Americans who are voicing their discontent in their own way. I also find it interesting that there is essentially a negative aura painted around the entire concept of attempting to do anything but worship our officials and their policies, or fear ridicule. Let's all float along with the apparent current. It's almost like your goal is to encourage Americans to fear anyone who even speaks about any of these topics. The simple fact is that there is a massive scale degeneration occurring in our society that must be recognized and corrected. Those who have the courage to promote positive lawful change should be praised and encouraged, not ridiculed and associated with murderers and lawless sociopaths. If criticizing those who defend the declaration of independence, the constitution, and the design of our American political system, begin with the founders who openly risked (and some lost) their lives, fortunes, and their sacred honour to detach us from a corrupt despot and set us free from subjection; and who instituted a system of self-government where the individual's rights to life, liberty and property are secured in writing. The people are failing in their duty to understand and maintain that system, and all that it stands for. Thank you for your article, and thank you for the opportunity to respond.
Most sincerely,
The Historian
Kudos...Well
Submitted by greatboldworld on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 14:51.
Kudos...Well said... Discernment, Discernment, Discernment--it's everything in real intellect. One of the best pieces on this site.
Connecting The Dots..
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 02:37.
Wow. I am humbled by your ability to identify so clearly the flawed perceptions and confirmation bias of so many people (like me) .
So true, so true.
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 03:07.
" And, I find it interesting that the label of "movement" has been ascribed to a number of Americans who are voicing their discontent in their own way." THANK YOU Historian, this is what the general public needs to identify.. These labels are very dangerous too, when people don't stop to question them.
sovereign citizens
Submitted by fishy on Thu, 03/24/2011 - 20:08.
It sounds so benign at first. Who could argue with the notion that we all have the right to life, liberty, etc. without undue interference from our government? But what the sovereigns actually want is freedom from other people's rules so they can do what ever the heck they please...whether it is not paying taxes, driving without a license, not paying child support...exploiting the elderly. In the case of Evelyn Schwartz, they want you to believe it is about Mrs. Schwartz's sovereignty. But, after reading all of the material, I have concluded it was really about Dean and his wish to continue to live off of Mrs. Schwartz. Dean has recently been released from prison. Is he on the lookout for another elderly person to provide "handyman" services to? How is he going to support himself, besides sponging off of savcash. I don't know dbra, and I only recently happened upon this site, but she should not be scared off by the likes of savcash. Dbra's insticts are correct, in my opinion.
Hold Up~
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 02:48.
"But what the sovereigns actually want is freedom from other people's rules so they can do what ever the heck they please...whether it is not paying taxes, driving without a license, not paying child support...exploiting the elderly. " .. And as long as they don't get in the way of YOUR life, liberty, or property, can you really hold it against them???? Next, I want you to see what happens when I replace "sovereigns" with a different word in your sentence. "But what the Federal Government actually want[s] is freedom from other people's rules so they can do what ever the heck they please...whether it is not paying taxes, driving without a license, not paying child support...exploiting the elderly.
Here's the hypocrisy in my own words... "But what the Federal Government actually want[s] is freedom from other people's expectations of fairness and Justice. so they can do what ever the heck they please...whether it is demanding taxes for endless military expansion, converting rights into licensed privileges (for example driving, doing business, owning a pet, doing anything potentially hazardous etc.. etc..) It's just like, so annoying for the Federal Government when they have to represent the people. Because the Federal Gov't wants to play with their new toys of destruction. They get soooo bored when everything is working smoothly."
so agree
Submitted by cj on Thu, 03/24/2011 - 20:10.
to it all. TO be crass, they milked the poor woman dry.
and the original article by DBRA is the best
Submitted by cj on Thu, 03/24/2011 - 20:11.
The best written and posted here in a while.
The SPLC and Rampant Misinformation
Submitted by rkeefe57 on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 06:22.
"The Southern Poverty Law Center* has reported on the Sovereign Citizen Movement, now deeply imbedded within the Tea Party and stalwarts in the Republican (GOP) Party" Okay, so on the one hand, Sovereigns believe that they "are answerable only to English common law and are not subject to any statutes or proceedings at the federal, state or municipal levels..." But on the other hand, the SPLC claims they are registered Republicans?? Am I the only one who finds those two statements a little incongruous? It's like saying most atheists are Mormons. It makes no sense. The most ironic (read: "hypocritical") thing about the Southern Poverty Law Center is that NOT ONE of its top ten, highest paid executives is a minority. In fact, according to the SPLC's hometown newspaper, the Montgomery Advertiser, despite being located LITERALLY in the back yard of Dr. Martin Luther King's home church, the SPLC has NEVER hired a person of color to a highly paid position of power in its entire 40 year history. Some "experts"
Certainly the SPLC only has
Submitted by greatboldworld on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 14:08.
Certainly the SPLC only has the best interests of all oppressed people at heart. Sir, your cynicism deeply saddens me. Are you insinuating that this fine, non-profit group exists for little more than their own self-interest? I do declare!
RE:
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 03:00.
(sarcasm undetermined) At this point who knows why they exist? Obviously, it has gone above and beyond the scope of anti semitism! I do declare! They seem to come up with new "movements" (and of course the reasons why these movements are blah blah blah) all the time. Show me the antisemitism. Ok, there's a tiny little bit over there (Posse Comitatus)...
SPLC is a fine organization
Submitted by samuel on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 16:30.
Sorry if you disagree. For real information, www.splcenter.org/who-we-are/board-of-directors
What the problem really is.
Submitted by Historian on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 19:34.
Good evening all: I wish to thank (but not name) all of those commenters who have demonstrated their ability to post useful statements founded in fact, while simultaneously refraining from asserting unfounded and unqualified opinions as fact. I also wish to call attention to the seeming unending flood of emotionally driven, raw, rude, nonsensical, self-important, clearly baseless, misleading, and useless assertions, pokes, jabs, stabs, and just plain childishness that is plaguing this community site, as well as so many others that are otherwise worth a damn to a lot of people. We have serious issues on the local, state, and national levels to tend to with serious discussion, debate, and action. Attention is being distracted from important information and issues by personal discord and subversion. Nothing positive will be accomplished in a forum lacking decorum, civility, and the standard of care to be expected among intelligent adults. I apologize for my pedantic tone, I am certainly not worthy of casting any stones. But my occasional indiscretions take nothing from the truth of the matter. Good night. Sincerely, The Historian
What the problem really is?
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 02:25.
I'm sorry but there are a few things about your post that I would like to point out to everyone, because this is a classic example of the labels and assumptions that I am trying to avoid. "I wish to thank (but not name) all of those commenters who have demonstrated their ability to post useful statements founded in fact, while simultaneously refraining from asserting unfounded and unqualified opinions as fact." And exactly what is a "useful statement"? How do you already know what I consider to be "useful"~! Are you a mind reader?! Could you please define this so everyone will know for future reference what "useful" means. "I also wish to call attention to the seeming unending flood of emotionally driven, raw, rude, nonsensical, self-important, clearly baseless, misleading, and useless assertions, pokes, jabs, stabs, and just plain childishness that is plaguing this community site, as well as so many others that are otherwise worth a damn to a lot of people." The unending flood of ..... reactions to the discussion??? Wait a minute, you mean I shouldn't write about what I am emotionally affected by? Should I write about what bores me then? I shouldn't keep my posts "Raw" and uncluttered with fancy English mannerisms? Wait a minute~ You mean I am the only one who appreciates humor and nonsense? Reality Check: If you can't accept the community's comments the way they are, perhaps it is YOU who needs to stop worrying about what is "useful", "acceptable", not a "jab", not "childish" etc etc etc. There is a time and place for every sort of post. "We have serious issues on the local, state, and national levels to tend to with serious discussion, debate, and action. Attention is being distracted from important information and issues by personal discord and subversion." Ok, step 1, take care of the personal discord and subversion, since no one will be able to work together on these very important "issues" until their petty differences have been set aside. Ready, BREAK!! Ok, step 2, since usually a discussion never leaves the debate phase, we won't have any expectations of the outcome of the debate until it is obvious that "we're there". "Nothing positive will be accomplished in a forum lacking decorum, civility, and the standard of care to be expected among intelligent adults." There you go again, speaking for the group. You must have forgot to ask me what I wanted out of the forum, because it wasn't restricted to only "positive" outcomes. As a matter of fact, I'll be happy with ANY outcome I can get. I can give you a little advice though on your other "annoyances". Praise the behavior you want to see more of, and IGNORE AT ALL COSTS the behavior you dislike.. :) Cheers, mr. Historian.
You're not pedantic. You
Submitted by greatboldworld on Fri, 03/25/2011 - 19:45.
You're not pedantic. You bring the level of discourse here way up. Some stones need casting. GBW
Let me explain to everyone
Submitted by theNewScapeGoat on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 01:22.
Let me explain to everyone here what is really going on with these "Sovereign Citizens". The Federal Government, in their relentless media campaign to promote themselves and their never-ending circus of "safety" and "security", have just identified the next "threat" (here we f***ing go again), standing in the way of their ultimate goal of power, wealth, greed, power, uuhh.. uh uuuuh.. and being king of the mountain (and other 5 year old type ego trips). So, how did the Federal Government "raise awareness" about the new "domestic threat"? Well, conveniently they have the big fat corporate media to carry out their empty messages for them via local news on tv and on the radio, and in some instances on the internet, though their ability to gloss over every possible thing is somewhat diminished on the net (oh yeah, people aren't as dumb as we thought). Here's the Federal Governments latest poster boy of "terrorism", the "domestic terrorist", the "paper terrorist", the "lawless ones", the "sovereign citizens". Great, now they have the general public doing all of their pointless propoganda for them via discussion boards like this one. Let me sum up everything you guys are saying in one sentence. "Jared Loughner shot innocent people, and therefore EVERYONE who resembles a "sovereign citizen" is ALSO A HUGE THREAT TO MY PRECIOUS SAFETY, and they should be treated like a lunatic and be put on a special list of very dangerous people to watch out for. And Uncle Sam will be protecting my interests, and Uncle Sam really cares about my safety, and Uncle Sam wants me to be a good little snitch and help the government fight crime or whatever the fuck they call it these days. " PROBLEM #1 - EVERYTHING is a threat to the Federal Government. Why? Because everything they do is for themselves, and they want the people to pay for all of it. No, you can't ask questions or debate the issues. You can't act like you're angry when they ROB you blind for victimless crimes and other infractions and nonsense like that. The federal government has obviously realized by now that in order for them to reap such a gigantic harvest for themselves and not exert any effort at all for it, they must insist upon their stupid little war on terror so people will be too scared or too egotistical ( I'm a community volunteer, and I report crimes to the dept of ABC ). Just wait though- they'll find a way to make EVERYONE with money to lose into some kind of "domestic threat".
Basically, you have the latest wackos (Loughner, the Dad and Son who shot some cops, other semi related violent offenders) that APPEAR to RESEMBLE your typical run of the mill SOVEREIGN CITIZEN with their "wacky legal ideas", and their hatred of being told what to do by authority figures. So.. PROBLEM #2. Who, besides a lawyer, can really say wether or not a legal theory is actually "wacky" or "accceptable"? Even if it is wacky, it still might be valid in some judicial setting. Because people are so clueless and scared of the law, they like to pretend that they are on the "knowlegable side" and make fun of kids like loughner so they can feel "appropriate" or "not insane like loughner". Red Flag: You have some concerned looking business type person on the news who is telling you what the important issues are. Let's not kid ourselves, 90% of all laws are useless filler designed to offer "law enforcement officers" a perfect opportunity to STEAL THE TIME AND MONEY of regular, working members of "society". Remember, the federal government can NEVER be wrong. Everything they say is 100% GOLD. (*rolls eyes*).
It's too bad the general public is so afraid of actually taking off the rose colored glasses and realizing that the "sovereign citizen" is just trying to escape the tyranny and idiotic agenda of those Federal Gov't Pirates that won't leave him or her alone. The Federal Government kills so many innocent people on a regular basis for their own selfish reasons that it makes Loughner's little temper tantrum seem so incredibly insignificant that you wonder why they even wasted our time in the first place. I mean, forgive me for saying this, but the Federal Government IS the BIGGEST TERRORIST ORGANIZATION that I can think of! Give me a f***ing break people. And please don't for a second think that the Anti Defamation League has your best interests at heart when they sat down to author their amazingly dogmatic and unverified smear campaigns , I believe they refer to them as "publications", he heh. These people don't do their homework, they just spread fear. And I can't do anything with fear, so what is the point of it all? Do I want to be afraid? No. I'd rather laugh and be happy.
It's time to stop labeling everyone and categorizing all of these various "threats". It's time to shut up. Things are so much more complicated then simply identifying the "enemy", and attempting to "remove them from the situation". Been there, done that! So, if you decide to throw me into the "sovereign citizen" category, that was YOUR CHOICE, and just shows how weak you are. What are you then, if I'm a SC? Are you a perfect little law abiding citizen? I bet you have some dirty little secret that we all could use to categorize you into a lesser tier of moral achievement. Are you a faceless, emotionless federal robot who assumes his or her sh*t doesn't stink? Get Real. GET REAL, Think for yourself. Quit pretending that you are with the "right" group of people. There is no such thing. Loughner was an idiot, but that doesn't mean that smart people who like to read books are "domestic terrorists" DO YOU UNDERSTAND!?!?!?!?!?!
what is really going on is:
Submitted by savcash on Fri, 04/08/2011 - 12:00.
you forgot one;
Problem #3 The government manufactures stories and events often. As far as the Jerry Kane murder of him and his son, these are the videos that do not lie, along with docs, audio from the FOIA that shows the 911 calls and the wrong license plate numbers too. Anyone with a stomach for some real truths can go here and see what has been documented to date http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Jerry-and-Joe-Kane-Memorial.html
it isn't over yet. While the gov twists and takes part in assaults and cover-ups, spinning a story to make the masses believe, the real truth often is uncovered. [*** FULL LENGTH 44 MINUTE EPISODE *** (Season 1, Episode 5) "Secret Societies / The Bilderberg Group" They're thought to be a group of the world's elite who meet once a year at a luxury hotel and decide how they will run the world. It's believed they plan to thin out the population through disease-and vaccines. Jesse Ventura infiltrates the Bilderberg Group.] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiFcGRmagmk&feature=player_embedded
It just takes more time, Betty
The problem is, America is NOT a Democracy - it is a Republic! As our Founding Fathers established, can we keep it?
Is it still illegal to ....
Submitted by ANGELnWard14 on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 01:34.
My comment of "con artist"...was directed towards...
Submitted by mytown55 on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 06:42.
savcash...I wouldn't want dbra, to believe, I directed it to her, since, when I read my recent statement on March 20, 2011 ... I felt, it needed to be clarified...and I still say...as, I said in the beginning...my opinion, of course, that, savcash was and is here to sabotage our site and of course, has created a whole lot of havoc...trying to shove her "beliefs"on me and others by pushing buttons... individually, terrorizing us one by one, to leave the site or continue to argue with her and "her beliefs" and I have NO COMMENT to say to her, because, I was and am intelligent enough to realize "just what she was all about from the beginning" ....and also, there have been times, that, I could not "log on" through, my username...that, I was ready to change my username...and then, my log-in comment page came up for me to post on....Things just happen that way sometimes for me...which, could have happened to others trying to log in.....none of "this" name-changing" has anything to do with some secret "hidden identity" as, savcash has been directing such false accusation against "certain individuals,who do not agree with her....WE ALL KNOW WHO "WE" ARE. We at this site don't like to "cause trouble"...WE LIKE TO BRING IT TO OTHERS ATTENTION AND DO OUR BEST TO CORRECT IT, in a fair manner...or BRING out information so, others will know and be AWARE of "what is going on in our community or nation."I didn't need or want a "VISITOR" to bust through our door of this site, to create such terrorist mischief to a site , that, I consider "my second home"...maybe, she should "PAY HER DUES TO BE A "MEMBER" HERE" if, she feels her statements are so important ...there are yearly fees to keep this site at hand.
WE LIKE TO BRING IT TO OTHERS ATTENTION AND DO OUR BEST TO CORRE
Submitted by iggie on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 06:46.
to correct it.
Thank you mytown55.
Even the best intentions can go wrong sometimes. The key is to realize when and straighten your path.
Best to you - Debra
More Kudos
Submitted by Historian on Thu, 04/14/2011 - 19:57.
To all posters here, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts. Thank you. I must say, however, there seems to be some issue or friction between the "dbra", "savcash", "mytown", "iggie", and a few others. Another one of you warned to ignore garbage like that and rather focus on praising the good that certain people are doing. Unfortunately, this evening, my cartwheel has fallen into the gutter of the low-road and my brakes are worn. So,.... STOP IT. JUST STOP IT. STOP THROWING STONES. STOP WASTING ENERGY ON NEEDLESS BANTER AND ASSUMPTIONS.
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Jared Loughner, the man who allegedly emptied a 
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The Evelyn Schwartz
The Evelyn Schwartz thread has never been about Betty, Dean, Linda, me or even you and those that are deluded by your twisting......... It is about Evelyn Schwartz and the actions taken by Cuyahoga county agents (some of whom I suspect you know very well) that caused Evelyn a horrific last two years of her life and very probably hastened her death unlawfully. That is what the Ohio Grand Jury will be investigating this year. Why you felt it necessary to turn that subject matter into an attack on everyone that is seeking justice for Evelyn is beyond me. The facts that can't be escaped is that agents of APS, Mayfield Heights, Cuyahoga prosecutors office and that probate court have worked together to take from Evelyn the quality of the balance of her life without her having injured another and without her consnet. What is most intriguing about your assault is that the tactics you are using are nearly identical to those used by the agent perpatrators. When you realized you had nothing of value to say about that subject matter, you quickly turned the conversation to dean, and then betty, and then linda, and then me and finally to the 'sovereign citizens' movement. what is amusing is that you have done a good job of disclosing only one side of this controversy. Is it right that you picked most of that information from what betty and others published for all to read?. Hmmmmm,, lets see here......... betty published everything about the case............ and you now publish only those elements that would support the bad acts of the city and county officials. hmmmmm. I don't suppose you recognize that something smells about that............ do you?
This is the last time i will post on this forum anything that does not directly relate to Evelyn Schwartz Right to her own life, Liberty and Property and the assault that destroyed that, so pay attention. The one thing that you did get from elsewhere is the assault you are making of the sovereign citizens movement which you got from the FBI files and they got from the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-defamation league websites .......... almost verbatim. Three very well funded propaganda motivated sources. What you failed to add is that those same sources name people like Ron Paul or anyone that supports him as being potentially a terrorist.................... worse than that........... it names anyone that would rely on the constitutional mandates on every agent and agency of government that limit their authority when defending themselves in court as being a "paper terrorist". Wow............... major league twisting. what is most curious about your rant is that you obviously do not even know what a sovereign in America is, or that the Federal Government declares itself to be one.......... as does that State Government. You dont' even know why they claim this........
Here it is in a nutshell......... In order to be sovereign, there must be something to be sovereign over. Those of the framing generation declared that the 'people' meaning the individual people were the sovereiegnty but they were sovereigns without subjects. Here is how it works:
Respecting the Federal Sovereignty; its domain is as granted to it by the collective "We the People" written in the Constitution for the United States of America. This creating a FEDERAL DOMAIN over which the Federal Government, through its democratic processes, wields dominion.
Respecting State Sovereignty; its domain runs concurrent with the domain of the collective "We the People", said else wise; those powers granted to the collective, “We the People”, by the individual members thereof, which it, the collective, necessarily cedes to it’s Agent; the State Governments, through it’s democratic processes, wields dominion.
Respecting Individual Sovereignty, yours and mine; All that is not granted to the Federal Government nor to We the People (the collective and its agent the State) makes up this domain over which the individual wields his sole exclusive authority or dominion.
This is unassailable fact....... if you dont' take my word for it..... critically read the Preamble to the Bill of Rights in the Federal constitution and then read critically the Tenth Amendment of the Bill of rights. what they are both saying is simply that there are some powers that are specifically denied to both the State and Federal governments...... by the restrictive and declaratory clauses making up the Bill of Rights. It is what is specifically denied to government that individual people are sovereigns over. Those being thier own Life, their Liberty and their justly acquired (owned) property.
Why do you suppose governments, the FBI, the SPLC and the ADL would be assaulting this aspect of our American Society? Any idea? I have an idea............. they are attempting to twist a free people into slaves that are bound to provide for the lazy and greedy among us. That is called Socialism or collectivism......... now you all have a better idea what you should be supporting...... I am sure it is not the agents that assaulted Evelyn or those on this forum that would try to make you believe that those agents have some authority that could not originate from the constitutions that reatrain them.
Please lily........ or truthbtold or whoever else you claim to be.......... stop this assault and try to focus on the wrong that has been done to Evelyn.
btw I always sign my work
William Duff
just preserving the comment
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The investigative journalism
The investigative journalism of this muckraker deserves a Pulitzer! Thank God for this kind of bravery. Yes, a brave soul against the soverign citizen movement. Yawnnnnnnnnnn.
Let me get this straight. First--We're to believe that this group is some kind of major threat, and then---ah, they want to infiltrate this site. Why, exactly, would they even be bothered? Too funny. Too self-aggrandizing. Stop tickling me.
Hee hee. Hee hee. No! I said "Stop It". You're killing me.
BURP IT
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bye bye...bill duff and betty...no donations ...
no support... from me.
Dbra, most excellent
post!
thank you - I couldn't take it any more
I really didn't have the time to do this, but the lies, manipulation and con jobs were just too much.
I referenced well established sources... even Fox News had something on this!
Debra Shephard
You should really sign your work if you are so proud of it- dbra, debra s or really should be
Debra Shephard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzyLDn20PP0&feature=channel_video_title
like you did there, good job :) this however thread and content is utter nonsense!! Betty
The problem is, America is NOT a Democracy - it is a Republic! As our Founding Fathers established, can we keep it?
We know who dbra is...
and I know YOU are a CON ARTIST!